True North: Navigating Values on the Sober Journey


[00:00:00] Sonia: Hi, we're Kathleen and Sonia, and you're listening to Sisters in Sobriety. Thanks for being here. I'm Sonia, and I'm with my sister in sobriety. [00:01:00] Actually, my sister in law, Kathleen. Kathleen, how are you doing today?

[00:01:05] Kathleen: Well, um, there's laughter, uh, because I had shingles. Dun, dun, dun. So for those of you who do not know what shingles is, it is a very, very, very painful virus. It results in a rash. It's actually the chicken pox virus, and so when you have chicken pox when you're little, it goes dormant and then. it will come out, through your nerves and cause a disgusting, blistery rash, and mine was on my mouth, and in my mouth, and it was really bad.

[00:01:44] Sonia: It was in your mouth? I thought it was just on your lips.

[00:01:48] Kathleen: girl, no, I had to, all my meals were through a straw. I was like protein shake queen for days, It was bad. I mean, some people will see this and it doesn't look that bad now. but, you saw the [00:02:00] pictures.

[00:02:00] Sonia: It was hard to look at. And it was hard, I mean, It was hard to know that, let me be honest, you did it to yourself, in a way, like, I felt like, no, like, I knew you had been working too hard, and I knew you had been stressed, and we had just been talking about it, a few days before, and so,

[00:02:17] and we had just done the self care, self compassion episodes, and so, I don't know, what do you think?

[00:02:22] Kathleen: Yeah. I mean, so I have a few thoughts about this. the last few months before Christmas, I was definitely pushing my body, um, beyond what. I think it was capable of for sure. And I knew it like I was very conscious of it and then I sort of slowed down a little bit around christmas and I don't know if my body was just like ha ha Now you've rusted and i'm gonna take you but regardless, I definitely need to slow down and I get it and I'm listening.

[00:02:53] And so I think that's the point is I, knew I was stressed and I'm [00:03:00] really taking steps to minimize some of the stress in my life. Some of it is just, it's going to be stressful. Like I'm building a practice right now. It's going to be stressful, but I can't take care of other people if I'm not taking care of myself.

[00:03:14] So, yeah, I really. I'm really locked down in terms of like what I'm eating, so I, I'm really careful not to put junk in my body, I'm sleeping a lot right now, I am reducing the amount of commitments I have, and some things I can't reduce, but yeah, it was a big wake up call for me, and I did it to myself, for sure, mm hmm, mm

[00:03:38] Sonia: my, New Year's resolution was to listen to my instincts more, like my body and my mind. And so, what you just went through is like a really good wake up call to for me to listen to those things. your body does tell you. I don't know why, but the last few nights I've been going to sleep at nine [00:04:00] o'clock and waking up at 7 o'clock.

[00:04:03] So I've been sleeping, like an obscene amount, but obviously that's what my body wants. I don't think I'm being lazy,

[00:04:09] Kathleen: No,

[00:04:10] and I think where, where it was a challenge for me as I knew my body was telling me, but I was like, I just need to push through for the next few months and, you know, I have a milestone in April and I was like, I just need to push through and I knew it, I knew that I was, I was working seven days a week and I was working, you know, 12 to 16 hours a day.

[00:04:32] And that's over now. That has stopped. And I mean, listen, you know me, I have a hard time slowing down. But it's happening. I never want to go through that again. Ever. It was horrible. It was so horrible.

[00:04:46] Sonia: we're not in our thirties anymore, lady. Like, it's one thing, I do remember working that much when I was in my, early, mid thirties. And It's just different, but what's interesting is that we're talking about values today, which I know you [00:05:00] love a good value.

[00:05:01] Kathleen: love a good value. I sure do.

[00:05:05] Sonia: it fits in a little bit with what you've been going through.

[00:05:08] And so, yeah, I think it's important to realign yourself with your values when you get sober or you're starting to get sober. And I know we've both experienced pretty major value shifts in our lives.

[00:05:21] Kathleen: mm hmm

[00:05:22] and in sobriety, reconnecting with your values is a really, really important step. So often when there is an unhealthy relationship with any substance, It means that people are acting in a way that is conflicting with their core values, and so that can lead to guilt and shame and a sense of the loss of themselves.

[00:05:44] So I generally say to my clients when I see them, if there's disharmony in your life in some way, It's usually because you're not living in alignment with your values and it doesn't necessarily mean that we live exactly in alignment with our values all of the [00:06:00] time. But it does mean that when there is something that's not flowing in your life, I would look at your values and that.

[00:06:08] So Sonia, how would you define values?

[00:06:11] Sonia: Yeah, I really think that they are guiding principles that shape your behavior and they give your life direction and meaning. And they're really personal and they vary a lot, from person to person and some examples of values that might help listeners start thinking about values and defining them for themselves are like ambition, authenticity, courage, friendship, growth.

[00:06:37] Independence, learning, and then there are others like success, wealth, and so just from those few you can see how you can have a shift of values even within yourself. So how would you define values?

[00:06:53] Kathleen: Yeah, I I've defined them very similarly. So I believe that personal values are your core beliefs and principles that [00:07:00] really guide your behavior and decision making. And that's a really important thing. The decision making. So when you know what your values are, and most people have never sat down to think about.

[00:07:10] What are my values? but when you know what they are, you're able to base decisions on them as well. So, really, they're deeply held convictions about what is important in your life and it can influence what your priorities are, what you, how you take action on things, how you interact with other people.

[00:07:30] the important thing is that, and I, I'm laughing as I say this because I wasn't really living into my values as I got my shingles, but Living into your values means that we do more than say what our values are, we practice them. So we walk our talk and when we're clear about what we believe and what we hold as important to us, then we take care that our intentions, our words, our thoughts, and our behaviors are aligned with those beliefs.

[00:07:57] Sonia, how can listeners start [00:08:00] to define their values?

[00:08:02] Sonia: Yeah, so, you know too, I need practical ways to do things. And so, if someone told me, let's just think about your values, I have no idea what to do. It's, too vague, and this is actually something you had me do. A year and a half, two years ago, and it was so helpful. And so you said to me before I was going to bed one night, reflect on your past experiences.

[00:08:24] So think about moments in your life where you felt truly happy, fulfilled, or proud. What were you doing? Who were you with? And then the opposite. Think about times where you were really unhappy or dissatisfied and what was missing. And what was out of alignment. So. I did that and that was super helpful.

[00:08:47] And then the next step was I just made a list of what was most important in my life. So, those broadly can be like family, career, health, spirituality.

[00:08:57] so as you reflect on these aspects, you look for [00:09:00] underlying themes. So if you value family and friendship, a core value could be connection or relationships.another thing I do, and I talk about this a lot is consider your ideal self. Like who is that person that you that you know you could be, and what traits does that person have, andfor me, of course, I journal about it, and the values exercise, the one that you made me do, I actually look at.

[00:09:26] Pretty frequently, andit's just important to know it's not straightforward, especially when you're talking about recovery, where you're also navigating some other pretty significant personal changes, and, you know, it takes some quiet time with yourself and some courage to face, uncomfortable truths about who you have been and who you want to be, and it's a really, really important step, though, to living an authentic life.

[00:09:53] How do you think listeners can define their values?

[00:09:56] Kathleen: Well, first off, like I mentioned, I don't think that we can just assume that [00:10:00] we know our values without taking some really concentrated thinking time and reflection about it. So I guide my clients through what you described what I gave you. It's called a peak experience exercise. That's what I call it.

[00:10:13] And so we think about what your peak experience was. And usually I say to my clients, it's the first thing that comes to mind. Where did you feel that you were most aligned with your true self? Is or was, and then I have them, my clients tell me about that. And so you could journal about that. You can journal about what that experience was, and then look for some of the values in that story.

[00:10:39] So I will often pull those out with my clients, as they reflect back that story to me, I'll be like, Oh, well, you were with people. do you value connection or, so yes, definitely in that way.

[00:10:50] I also really recommend worksheets and there are many out there. Um, for our listeners, we are going to link one in our sub stack. if you want to look at a [00:11:00] values worksheet, then definitely check out our sub stack

[00:11:03] But I, I think that it's helpful to have a list. and, uh, to choose from, because sometimes it can be really hard to think of all these values, and there's so many, and, you know, I generally ask my clients to come up with six, and then I narrow it down even further, to two, so I definitely have two core values that I try to live by, and that really guide my decisions.

[00:11:30] Sonia, what do your values give you?

[00:11:34] Sonia: I think for me, they really give me a sense of direction, especially in situations where I'm unsure. And they really keep me sober too. So when I think about that person that I want to be and what qualities they have, that's what I need to be that version of myself. And so I would say I have a few core values that really do help me stay sober and help me [00:12:00] make, the right decision for me in those tough situations.

[00:12:04] For example, if I, want to have a drink, I, play that tape forward, andthat person doesn't align with who I want to be. So, what do your values give you?

[00:12:15] Kathleen: So, my values are really my north star. So, they're, they're like the guiding principle in my life. And if I, if I look at my values, in my twenties, Freedom was probably one of my main values, but freedom in my 20s looks very different than it does now. So in my 20s, I was climbing mountains in Egypt, and that would have been my definition of Freedom and now freedom is different.

[00:12:41] Freedom is for me, it would be like by being financially free and being able to provide the things I want to provide my daughter and things like that. So, so values would be different now. What they provide me is a North Star, so I'm not living in accordance with that value.

[00:12:55] Then I need to look at what's happening in my life and take a step [00:13:00] back and readjust, which is great. I'm so glad we're talking about values today because one of my core values, which I'm happy to share, is courage. And courage, I really reflected on this in the last week because For a long time, courage meant me doing the thing that I was scared to do,

[00:13:18] But right now, courage means I need to be able to step back a little bit and slow down, and that is so hard for me, and that I'm so scared to do that. So, what the value, the meaning might change depending on what you're doing in your life.

[00:13:33] Sonia: That totally makes sense. It's funny, last night I had a meeting and I gave them this quote to journal about and actually I journaled about it last night and it was, a James Baldwin quote that was not everything that is faced can be changed but nothing can be changed until it is faced.

[00:13:53] Kathleen: Mmm. Say that again, Sonia.

[00:13:56] Sonia: It is, so it's James Baldwin, no name in the [00:14:00] street, Not everything that is faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it is faced.

[00:14:08] Kathleen: Mmm.

[00:14:09] Sonia: Yeah, and I journaled, and I actually gave myself these little prompts like, Let's face it, you need to change this, and sometimes with journaling, like the one I, did last night, I'll probably journal about that for a couple of days in a

[00:14:23] Kathleen: Well, given that the quote includes face, and my shingles was all over my face, I feel like I'm going to use that as a journaling prompt. That I need to face,

[00:14:35] Sonia: definitely

[00:14:36] Kathleen: in my life. So when you think back to who you were seven years ago, before you got sober, do you feel like your values have changed, or have they developed, have they strengthened?

[00:14:50] Sonia: Oh my god, yeah, like I look back at seven years ago and I can't even think of like a single value from that time [00:15:00] that I still hold dear. they changed, they developed, they morphed, they, all of it.

[00:15:08] Kathleen: So can you describe some of your values before you quit?

[00:15:11] Sonia: For sure, I've been spending actually some time thinking about it, knowing that we were doing this episode and to be honest it's a little painful when I think back to what drove my decisions before.

[00:15:23] Kathleen: Okay, are you ready to talk about it?

[00:15:25] Sonia: Yeah, I sure am. So, I was really just given my values by my parents and there was really Only one, and it was success.

[00:15:37] And so academic success, professional success, financial success, and all of it was achieved by direct comparisons to other people. So from As young as I can remember, I was striving not just for some academic success, but it had to be like the top of my class. [00:16:00] And what I've realized now is that if there is no why behind your values, it starts to feel really empty.

[00:16:10] And so I didn't know why I was. Trying to achieve these things, and it just kind of became this train without a destination, and I kept accumulating credentials, and then after that, I just started applying that same mentality to work, and, and then the only measure of success was financial, and Again, there was no why, and so I think it is really stressful to keep pursuing something without a why.

[00:16:43] And that's when my drinking So, around 2010, I had really distanced myself from people, from you guys, because I was so busy and I really didn't want any more responsibility.[00:17:00] I didn't want to have the responsibility of being an aunt or a daughter or a sister. I wanted to be able to just show up whenever I felt like it.

[00:17:08] And, What I didn't realize was how much that was destroying who I really was because I wasn't living in alignment with my values and so it really came to a head around like 2016 I was so depressed, I was suicidal, and I was drinking so much andit was awful I was always hungover and it just didn't make any sense.

[00:17:34] I was. I was successful beyond any expectation I had ever had. I was married, I had more than one home, but I just didn't want to live anymore. I just didn't see the point of what I was working so hard for, and I wasn't happy. Yeah, a slow shift sort of started to happen, and for me it meant getting out from under [00:18:00] this crushing amount of work, and so luckily we were able to sell the practice, and I had that space to get sober and realize how much alcohol had been hurting me, and that is when my values really started to shift, and I knew what I'd been doing wasn't working, but I didn't know why it wasn't working until I got sober.

[00:18:21] Kathleen: So we heard in what you just said that you had a few values, but they weren't making you happy or feeling fulfilled. Then why did you keep doing the same things over and over again?

[00:18:36] Sonia: Yeah, I think I didn't know any better, and I think a lot of us do this especially those of us who struggle sometimes withself worth issues is that you take on the values of people you're close to without really, evaluating them. And so, you know, I had people with much stronger opinions around me and much stronger personalities like my [00:19:00] parents, my husband,

[00:19:00] And so, yeah, and I had gone through some really tough things in my life and I just wanted to be numb and embracing values. Like that for me, financial success, wealth, those things let me be numb. And so, if you think about it, think about how many times you hear people say, like, uh, throw, I threw myself into work to distract myself.

[00:19:21] Kathleen: Oh my gosh, all the time. I hear it all the time.

[00:19:23] Sonia: yeah, and so that was me. I was throwing myself into something to distract myself that, and those were things you can control, right? Like money. The things you're achieving, material things. And so I just didn't want to dig any deeper to figure out what my real values were. What do you think makes us embrace values that don't align with who we are when we're drinking or using drugs?

[00:19:51] Kathleen: Oh gosh, I think there's so many reasons that we adopt values that aren't our own. Some of the values that we adopt could be cultural. so that's just, [00:20:00] from the culture we come from. So that's the value we adopt. It could be societal. So let's say that, you know, we live in North America in a very materialistic society.

[00:20:12] So if you see lots of people are on social media, valuing. Brand name things, let's say, and then you start to value brand name things and familial, like you said, you know, your family, we often, we often adopt a lot of the beliefs of our family and that can, and can really influence our. And we can also adopt other people's values because we're trying to people please or please others to get love and affection.

[00:20:41] So there's I think there's an attachment. Obviously, I'm gonna talk about this from a therapeutic point of view. I think there's an attachment lens in there. Like when we want love and affection and we don't know how to. Get it necessarily. Or we're used to having to do something for someone else to get that love and [00:21:00] affection, then our values can morph into someone else's.

[00:21:04] and we can just have someone else tell us what's important. I have a few clients that I like to do this with most of my clients. I do values exercises, even with my couples, not always, but a lot of the time. And it's so funny when I get a client who's. Truly, one of their values is money and like, really, and I have had a few clients where truly their value money and they're so like, there's such like, um, well, and they're dancing around it.

[00:21:34] And it's like, I know that that is what their value is. They don't want to say it because they're like. You know, you want money, but you don't want to say you want money, right? Like you, they want it, but they don't want to say it. And so I'm like, just say it if that's what you want. So sometimes. The value, you know, you may not feel like it's accepted or acceptable to say that's [00:22:00] your value.

[00:22:00] Um, but it's your value. You're laughing.

[00:22:06] Sonia: No, I mean, it is funny because it's like, I think we, we both know I have an ex husband who's, that was that's his core value.

[00:22:13] Kathleen: Yeah, but he would say

[00:22:14] Sonia: He would say it. I was just thinking the same thing.

[00:22:17] Kathleen: would a thousand percent. He would be like, it's money. Like that would be his first one.

[00:22:22] Sonia: But so interesting that I, I don't know. I'm just thinking about it and why didn't that occur to me that that was not in alignment with my values, or why didn't it occur to me that that was an issue?

[00:22:33] Because you're right, this fool was not hiding it.

[00:22:37] Kathleen: No, he was not. This guy was living his value. He was, he was, he was living his value hard.

[00:22:46] Sonia: Can you imagine what he's doing now that he ditched me? He's probably like living it all over

[00:22:50] the place.

[00:22:51] Kathleen: right? You probably balance that out because and here's okay. Here's listeners This is a tidbit of interesting I think I've told you this before [00:23:00] because when you were with your husband and his value is money I assumed that was your value. So we would go on these Cucaracha vacations like I'm talking like like beyond luxury, okay, and It was because it was his value And you are like, you're like, yeah, let's, uh, let's, let's take it home and watch the Great British Baking Show and da, da, da.

[00:23:25] But it was only after you split up that I realized, oh my gosh, that's not Sonya's value.

[00:23:31] Sonia: So, do you miss the, do you

[00:23:34] miss the crazy vacations.

[00:23:36] Kathleen: the best time in my life, I was living on a beach in Mexico in a tent. I've stayed in questionable places all over the world because I don't mind traveling like that.

[00:23:47] But yeah, they were fun. I'm not gonna, I'm not going to sit here and be like, Oh, it was too much for me. It was too much luxury, but no, I don't, I don't live for that. And I actually enjoy just spending time with you. Do you [00:24:00] miss the vacations?

[00:24:01] Sonia: no, I think for me, it's more important. Like an example was I babysat my niece, your daughter, overnight so that you and your boyfriend could go on like a romantic

[00:24:12] trip.

[00:24:13] Kathleen: So that to me, let's just say giving you that versus giving you a trip to me that's how I would show you how much I care about you.

[00:24:23] Yeah,

[00:24:24] Sonia: money just doesn't mean that, right? So it's like, yeah, you can throw money at it, but giving my time, I don't know, just is different.

[00:24:32] Kathleen: Yeah. I I do appreciate like I remember once you came to I hadn't gone away. I wanted to go see my grandmother and yes, my grandmother is still alive. She is a 95 year old firecracker. And I wanted to go see her with my boyfriend and Sonia's dog was really sick and she like did not sleep. And then like drove through the night basically to get to me, to be able to look after my daughter so I could just go away for a few days and that meant so much to me, [00:25:00] I can't even tell you.

[00:25:01] Sonia: so I would say, and I know we, we joke about this about my ex too, like, so in that case where the dog is sick, and he would have just hired somebody been like, Yeah, he would have figured it out with money,

[00:25:13] But that is interesting. Oh, this poor guy. We just make fun of him all the time.

[00:25:18] Kathleen: Yeah,

[00:25:18] Sonia: was this time, remember when we were driving to Toronto and we stopped at a rest stop and he just didn't like the rest stop. Like, he was like, this is disgusting. He's like, can we chopper out of here?

[00:25:28] Yeah, he was like, we could be in Toronto in like 30 minutes or we could spend another four hours driving and have to stop at another rest stop. And, is there a way we could chop her out of here? Yeah,

[00:25:40] Kathleen: Oh my gosh.And I remember I was still married and you guys came to visit and you slept in my daughter's room.

[00:25:50] And then the next time he was like, we need to stay at the Four Seasons. And I was like, what? And I was so like, Oh my gosh, is my house not good enough? But I thought [00:26:00] it was both of you. And then I realized after it wasn't, it was him.

[00:26:06] Sonia: Yeah, and that, to me, that, that's another value thing. It was embarrassing to me. he did that a few times when it came to my family. He didn't want to stay at my parents house either because he didn't like the temperature they kept it at. And so I was like, let's go to the Four Seasons. And I'm like, I don't think you know the way I grew up, like, how it would look to say to my parents, thanks for dinner.

[00:26:28] We're going to go to the Four Seasons now. Yeah, interesting. The things you see in hindsight. The

[00:26:34] Kathleen: Uh, isn't that brilliant? The things you see in

[00:26:36] hindsight.Can you tell us about how your values, the process of how your values change? Did it happen all at once or when you got sober or over time?

[00:26:47] How did it happen?

[00:26:49] Sonia: I think both. sometimes you're confronted with a situation that makes you re evaluate your values. And then I think sometimes you wake up one day and realize that you've been changing all [00:27:00] along.

[00:27:00] Kathleen: Yeah. And I know we're, we're going to do a whole episode on relationships, but your most significant relationships changed as a result of this shift in values. Right.

[00:27:11] Sonia: They sure did. Um, you can reference episode 8, the unexpected effects of sobriety.

[00:27:17] Kathleen: Okay, so tell us about how your value shift affected your relationship.


[00:27:24] Sonia: a few things happen at the same time, usually when you get sober. So I sold my business in 2017 and selling that allowed me to get sober and really let me work on who I was and what my values were and One of the first things I did was work on my relationships with my family So you my brother my nieces and it came from this really deep need Or connection.

[00:27:51] And I would say that's one of my core values. And after a few months of figuring out how to move through the world and social situations sober and [00:28:00] like waking up and feeling amazing on the weekends. I really also started to feel this immense gratitude, and I would say that's one of my other core values.

[00:28:08] And so when I'm in a bad place, I really do remind myself how lucky I am. I look back at my journal and there'll be like, tear stains on like entries when I'm going through a bad time and I'm still like, but I know how lucky I am to have my sister in laws and my nieces and these two adorable dogs. And so I really do, I, I, every time I feel myself sort of sinking into a hole, like I'll let myself sink.

[00:28:35] But at the end we'll be like, but I'm so lucky and so I think that's a huge value for me. And then. Probably after a few years of being sober, so around like 2019 before the pandemic, I felt this really deep need to connect with other people in sobriety.

[00:28:52] And so I did. I connected with people who were struggling and started attending meetings and realized that You know, with a few years [00:29:00] of sobriety, I had some tips and tricks I could give people that were in early sobriety. And then finally, 2022, I was confronted with my divorce and that really was one of those situations that made me reflect on my values.

[00:29:18] And so I really had to figure out why my ex and I were no longer compatible.

[00:29:24] one of my values, Wasfidelity, marriage commitment. And so I did not want to admit that, I was not compatible with my husband at the time.

[00:29:33] but when I look back and like the things that we joke about now, for sure, right? Those old values that I may have had. One, they either weren't really mine, but they just sort of like drifted away in sobriety, right? Like the money, the success, the achievements, and you know, it's still fun. I love having success.

[00:29:52] Like when we, when the podcast hits a milestone with downloads. That's fun. Getting success is fun, but it doesn't define [00:30:00] my self worth.

[00:30:04] Kathleen: So it seems like you had a huge, huge shift in values and how would you say these changes were related to your sobriety?

[00:30:14] Sonia: who I am now is really my authentic self. I'm still, like, work in progress, but, um, I'm living in alignment, with who I really am. And I think you can feel it when you are. It doesn't mean everything's,perfect, but you can feel it. That, you know, for me, for example, when I had to make some tough decisions in the last couple of years and as tough as they are I I feel good about them,

[00:30:42] Like, when you feel like you can defend them. And so, yeah, when I was drinking, I was on a hamster wheel. Like, work hard, play hard. and those were my values. But I know we talked a little bit about techniques to define your values. Can you walk us through some more things we can ask ourselves, especially when we're [00:31:00] thinking about getting sober, that can help us figure out and align better with our values?

[00:31:05] Kathleen: Yeah, it's a reflective process for sure. definitely spend some time. in a quiet space, maybe, I ask a series of questions in addition to that peak experience exercise they do, asking questions like what experiences bring you genuine joy and fulfillment and reflect on the moments in your life when you felt truly content and what.

[00:31:28] What do those experiences have in common? There's usually some threads that weave between them, and that's a good hint about what some of your values might be. When have you felt most proud of yourself? Consider the actions or achievements that have given you a sense of pride and why they mattered so much to you.

[00:31:47] What situations or behaviors make you feel uncomfortable or upset? And this is a great one because Feelings of discomfort or anger can highlight the [00:32:00] values that are being challenged or ignored. who do you admire and why so it doesn't, sometimes even uh I'll ask my clients, what celebrity or what person do you admire, even though you might not know them?

[00:32:15] and then I ask them why, because there might be a quality that is, that reflects what values you have. and what legacy do you want to leave behind? So consider how you want to be remembered and what that, what that says about your core values. So, Sonia, what resonated with you today, most from this episode?

[00:32:35] Sonia: So it's something really small that you said, and it's that you can have the same value, but it changes over time. So, like, what freedom meant for you in your 20s is different than what freedom Means for you now. And so, but freedom is still a value. And yeah, that's really interesting.

[00:32:56] I think that maybe, in a way, maybe [00:33:00] success still is a value of mine, but maybe it just means something different now. And so, that's actually something I would encourage the listeners to do also are there some values that are still going to be important to you? They just have a slightly different value.

[00:33:16] And so, I'm gonna, I'm gonna journal about that too. I loved that. What about you? What resonated with you?

[00:33:22] Kathleen: I think that what resonated with me is, is when you talked about how you adopted the values of your family. And I think so often we don't question where our beliefs and our values have come from and whether or not they're ours or someone else's or society's or culturally. And so. To really reflect and go inward and question what your beliefs and your values are and are they your own or are they someone else's and I think that really, really resonated with me too.

[00:33:57] And I am going to reflect on that one.

[00:33:59] [00:34:00] Thank you for listening today to sisters and sobriety.

[00:34:02] And we'll see you next week when we'll talk about maybe my favorite topic, because I'm a couples therapist relationships.

[00:34:11] This was Sisters in Sobriety, Thank you for listening and being with us today. If you want to learn more about sobriety and meet your community, find us at joineverbloom. com. Are you a sister in sobriety?

[00:34:23] Then reach out on social media. We'd love to hear from you. If you're feeling generous, leave us five stars and a review and follow us wherever you listen. You'll never miss an episode until next time.