Midnight Reflections: Embracing A New Way to Celebrate New Year's Eve


[00:00:00] Sonia: we're Kathleen and Sonia, and you're listening to =Sisters in Sobriety. Thanks for being here. I'm Sonia, and I'm with my sister in sobriety, my sister in law Kathleen.

[00:00:09] How are you doing today, Kathleen?

[00:00:11] Kathleen: Well, I am amazing, and I will tell you why, Sonia. you know, some of our listeners may not know, but we record a few episodes ahead, and we found out last night that Our first three episodes of our podcast have reached 10, 000 downloads, which is incredible. And we're also the number one health and fitness and number one mental health podcast in the UK or in Great Britain right now, which is mind blowing to us.

[00:00:46] Sonia: Mind blowing. I always ask people, when was the last time you had tears of joy? And there was a moment last night when I saw that number one on the UK charts where I had a tear of [00:01:00] joy.

[00:01:00] Kathleen: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm just shocked by it still. So thank you to the listeners who have been downloading and listening to our podcast. We really appreciate it and, you know, thank you. That's, I think that's what we can say. Thank you so much. We're so happy about that and we'll keep, keep bringing you the episodes.

[00:01:21] Sonia: Yeah, and we hope we are helping people with some ideas for the holidays. Like today we are talking about how to stay alcohol free for New Year's Eve, which to me is like one of the biggest drinking holidays. Like there's literally a toast at midnight, I can't even think of a bigger trigger.


[00:01:40] Sonia: I totally agree. I think it's such an interesting holiday in terms of like, you know, in terms of alcohol. So, what do you specifically think makes New Year's Eve so difficult to be sober?

[00:01:54] Yeah, I think it's the ultimate, celebration with alcohol. I think it's even more than, like, a [00:02:00] champagne toast at a wedding. It's so, intertwined with what New Year's Eve is, and I think it's hard to sort of separate the two, like, hitting midnight and then having a different, ritual.

[00:02:12] what do you think? Why do you think it's so tough to stay sober on New Year's Eve?

[00:02:16] Kathleen: Oh gosh, I think there's so many reasons about this. I think that there's so much social pressure and expectation around ears, you know, like, oh, are you gonna have a good time? And, you know, going out with other people and, The alcohol is all around, so I think the availability of alcohol, I think that New Year's also can bring emotional triggers, so let's say you're on your road to sobriety, or you're in your early, early journey of sobriety, then there can be some triggers, like I remember that I was, So I think there can be some emotional triggers, I also think that there can be some feelings of isolation on New Year's.

[00:02:58] So if you're not [00:03:00] surrounded by people, if you don't have plans and, you don't really have much to do for New Year's, that can be difficult. In the same respect, you can be around a lot of people, but if a lot of people are drinking and you're the only one that's sober, there can be, really some feelings of isolation there.

[00:03:17] So I think there's, there's a lot with New Year's Eve. It's pretty loaded.

[00:03:21] Sonia: and yeah, if I think back to my sober New Year's Eves, you're right. all of them have had like a kind of different trigger. Some have been like a memory trigger, um, some have been like the isolation trigger, and some have been there's so much alcohol here, trigger.

[00:03:40] Kathleen: for sure. I mean, there's definitely a lot of minefields with New Year's Eve. What, what does that mean then for a listener who's considering a sober New Year's Eve?

[00:03:50] Sonia: I think it means I know my my go to thing is you always need a plan Like I have a plan sometimes for random monday night and you know We'll talk a [00:04:00] little bit about alternatives to a typical new year's eve party But I don't feel like you can just jump into like an old situation without evaluating First how difficult is it going to be?

[00:04:12] to stay sober. And so when we talk about triggers, you may not want to go out with that same group of friends that you went out with when you weren't sober. You may not want to go to the same bar that you used to go to on New Year's Eve. And you may want to go to a place you've been to before, but check out before midnight.

[00:04:31] so some sort of workable plan. And I have done all of those things. So, while I focus on plans, what are some ways you can reframe the idea of New Year's Eve for yourself?

[00:04:43] Kathleen: You do focus on Plans, Sonia. You're such a good planner and I, I'm going to borrow some of that, but there are,a bunch of ways that you can reframe New Year's Eve. I personally am not a huge New Year's resolution girl myself. I [00:05:00] have this weird habit of starting my New Year's resolutions in December.

[00:05:04] I don't know what it is mentally, but I feel like I just, want to get on it. I don't wait for New Year's Eve. I start right now. But that being said, I think New Year's can be a new beginning for a lot of people. So I think you can refocus or reframe the idea of New Year's that it's to celebrate a new beginning, a new year.

[00:05:24] I think that New Year's also gives room to celebrate new traditions. So what are new traditions that you want to create instead of going to a bar what are some new traditions? Instead of focusing on the alcohol component, you could also focus on the connection that you have with people.

[00:05:44] So if you are going out with friends, focusing on that connection that you have with people. Um, there are some sober New Year's Eve's. mostly in bigger city centers, but there are some sober New Year's Eve events. So there's also things that you can do, for sober New [00:06:00] Year's. And you can also celebrate during the day.

[00:06:02] Why does this always have to be like a nighttime thing? There's, there's a lot of different ways to reframe New Year's Eve. One of my personal favorites is I. I do two things. On New Year's Eve, I do a list of gratitudes for my year, and then on New Year's Day, I actually make a photo book of our previous year.

[00:06:26] So, it's something I always do on New Year's Day, and it just really helps me reflect on the year that's gone by, how much I've grown and changed, how much my family, including you, have grown and changed, and then we have that memory from the year past. So, that's what I like to do.

[00:06:43] Sonia: Oh my god, there's so much there that, I need to think about. I think that For me, for so many years, maybe a decade, my New Year's resolution was to drink less and I think that there are so many people out there that feel the same way. and I do think, [00:07:00] yeah, that looking at it as a new beginning is so important.

[00:07:04] And being grateful for how much we've changed and grown. I totally, I totally agree with that.

[00:07:09] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Yeah, it is, it is a helpful practice for sure. What, what has it been like for you to be sober on the past five or six New Year's Eve's?

[00:07:20] Sonia: Yeah, I mean, I would say I think it's good to be realistic, but the first year I was white knuckling it through New Year's Eve. I went out to an early sushi dinner and washome well before midnight. And, I like to bake. And so I, I made a cake. And so what I normally try to do in general when I'm, no, I'm gonna be up against a trigger is I try to do something that I never could have done when I was drinking And so making a I remember it was like a walnut cake making a walnut cake at 9 p.

[00:07:50] m Was not something I could ever have done on new year's eve. So I mean and it's still something it's on my radar. I need to have a plan for new year's eve like right now, I don't know [00:08:00] what i'm doing in a couple of weeks for new year's eve, but I would say it's gonna be something where The majority of the people are mild drinkers or sober, and if not, it's not somewhere I can stay the whole time.

[00:08:15] I know I keep talking about the plan, but it really works because I think the last thing you want to do, especially when you're newly sober, is be, forced to make an on the spot decision. Somebody offers you a drink and you're like, Right? And so, I think it's always good to have a plan.

[00:08:32] But, I don't think, Kathleen, you were the kind of person, either was I, that left the party early.

[00:08:40] Kathleen: No, I usually was the party. I usually was, was the person who was keeping the party going.

[00:08:49] Sonia: So you must have a lot of stories about New Year's Eve's past, where there were no virgin drinks on the menu.

[00:08:57] Kathleen: Yeah, I think that for me,[00:09:00] there were a lot of drinks, but also a lot of drugs

[00:09:03] Sonia: alright, let's dive in to a story. From one of your New Year's Eves.

[00:09:09] Kathleen: Yeah, I mean, I had many, many New Year's Eve's that were foggy. Honestly, when I was reflecting back on my non sober New Year's Eve's, I don't really have that many memories of them. because I was just a mess for a lot of them. I, I was a messy drinker and I was, I wouldn't say like when I was doing drugs, I was that messy, but with them combined, I was definitely messy.

[00:09:37] So, There were lots of New Year's Eves, like me falling, getting bruised, falling down flights of stairs, getting into some sort of romantic situation. but one particular New Year's Eve, I do remember, I was out with friends and it was well past midnight. But I had done so much coke that the party was still going for me.

[00:09:57] Like, I was not even close to being tired. [00:10:00] Um, not even close. To wanting to shut the night down. So I was the last one standing and there were really no, this was pre Uber, pre lift, pre ride sharing. there were no cabs left in the city. And I know that seems sort of weird to believe, but I remember walking through the financial district in downtown Toronto and there were no cabs.

[00:10:24] I couldn't find a ride home and I lived uptown at the time and I was downtown and walking was not a possibility and subways, I think at the time there were like one or two hours in between when they were running and when they were opening again. So I was And it was freezing out. So, I, had open toed heels on and like a good, like a good Canadian girl in winter usually does.

[00:10:56] And there was slush everywhere. And I remember I [00:11:00] was wearing this like burgundy maroon outfit. There wasn't much to it. And I was so Cold and I was wandering around the streets trying to find a cab. I was freezing alone with wet feet And I I ended up sitting in a couple of hotel lobbies until the subway started running again So I could get home and I vowed that I would never again do that but the sad part of that is That happened many other times in terms of me being sort of stranded and alone, because I was the last one standing or I had like Taken off from my friends or done whatever and didn't just happen on New Year's Eve, but that is one New Year's Eve I remember particularly.

[00:11:48] Sonia: Wow, so after hearing this story of your New Year's Eve, I just can't help but think, how risky this behavior was, and I didn't know you then, but It's like I can see [00:12:00] that young woman, right? And I know you must be thinking it too that if it was your daughter or one of my other nieces that put themselves in This situation we would be mortified

[00:12:12] Kathleen: Yeah, I mean I think of that a lot actually with regards to my daughter and her her half sisters or sisters because I just never want them to be in situations like that and I was definitely prone to risky behavior for sure, and I think there's a lot of things that contributed to that.

[00:12:32] Sonia: Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I think the idea like just thinking of you being cold Alone wearing very little clothes and high on drugs there's So much involved in that, right? That, I think that it's important to figure out, what is it that, that allows us to take those risks?

[00:12:51] Are we addicted to the risk, do you think, also?

[00:12:55] Kathleen: Well, I think this is a such a good question that you've asked because, [00:13:00] you know, I just want to just state that not all people with addiction are drawn to risky behaviors aside from their substance abuse, but you know, when you are addicted to something, it is complex and it's really.

[00:13:13] Based on you as an individual. And so there's risk taking behaviors that can vary really widely. And so. for me, I, I've talked about this a bit before, I had undiagnosed ADHD, and so part of ADHD sometimes can be risk taking behaviours, and that was definitely part of it for me. I think, yes, sometimes people with addiction have, more likelihood to take risk taking behaviors, and that can be based on brain chemistry, personality, the effects of substances, like when I, you know, I had, I had these two levels.

[00:13:52] If I just did coke, I was normal, because Um, and it was, you know, what I didn't know is that really helped my brain [00:14:00] in that sense because I had ADHD and I didn't know it. So if I was just doing coke, I would say that I was my best self because I was just like how I wanted to be. I was focused. My brain was focused.

[00:14:11] If I mixed alcohol with cocaine, which was usually the case that I did, my inhibitions were gone. And I would absolutely partake in risk, risky behavior. And it really impaired my judgment for sure, you know, I don't want to get too technical but when you're addicted to something like alcohol or cocaine in my case, it really increases, it can increase your dopamine levels in your brain and that's It's related to a reward system, but that same system can be activated by risky behaviors, meaning that some risky behaviors are pretty enticing to people.

[00:14:50] and, there's also self medication too, so. People who engage in risky behaviors, it might be a form of self medication trying to [00:15:00] understand and cope with like anxiety or depression or trauma. So there's a lot of different factors and there's more I could go on and on about risky behavior, but, there are a lot of different factors that contribute.

[00:15:12] Sonia: So how would you describe the shift in your priorities once you got sober, as it relates to, your health and well being?

[00:15:21] Kathleen: Well, first of all, if our listeners have listened to earlier episodes, I got sober when I went on a month long, Yoga teacher training in Mexico when I got sober from cocaine and So I was in this place that I felt healthy all of a sudden I was doing yoga and meditation and eating well and sleeping well, so I Really saw the effects of not having the substance in my body.

[00:15:48] So I really saw much more clearly what my life would be like without coke. And I also was really grateful and I still am to this day. Gosh, [00:16:00] I think about it a lot actually. How grateful I am that I, I never overdosed. I never, was injured. You know, catastrophically injured, uh, had bruises here and there, and I really think that comes down to pure, pure luck.

[00:16:20] Sonia: I, I feel the same way. I think about it so much that I can't believe that I did not have more serious consequences. And in a way, I think that that's Tough because I was waiting for something to say like you have a problem But I did have a problem and I didn't hit my head I sprained an ankle a couple of times But I yeah, I really like I feel like it's important for people to not wait For something like that to consider whether or not they have a problem, um, but as you move into this kind of sober phase of your life, you're with my [00:17:00] brother, my brother's also sober, and New Year's Eve must have changed a lot.

[00:17:05] Kathleen: Oh, they did. They certainly did.

[00:17:08] Sonia: Do you want to tell us a little bit about a few of your more recent New Year's Eves drug and alcohol free?

[00:17:15] Kathleen: Yes, I'm scared a little bit to bore our listeners with this, but, so my first New Year's Eve after I stopped doing drugs, I wasn't with your brother yet, but it was a pretty amazing experience. I remember I had a dear friend who, came with me and

[00:17:32] So we found a yoga studio that was doing a class over midnight. So my friend and I went and, you know, when we were in the final resting pose, which is called Shavasana, the clock struck midnight. And I remember the teacher gave us a Haagen Dazs ice cream bar after, and I was like, oh, it felt like such a luxury.

[00:17:51] I was so excited about this, this. Ice cream bar at New Year's and I had an amazing sleep. [00:18:00] I woke up and I wasn't hung over. I wasn't, up all night having to sleep all day. And my New Year's, I will admit, have been very. tame ever since. So when I was with your brother, we did not in our entire relationship stay up to midnight once.

[00:18:15] Not in our entire relationship and marriage. I would just rather sleep and wake up rested and take on the new day and the new year. And I still very much feel that way. I would really prefer just to have a good night's sleep, but I'm you know, my partner now he's not sober. but he definitely doesn't party hard on new year's eve So we do stay up till midnight But then we're in bed, you know shortly after and I was gonna say sonia your you know Your plan b it can always be to come out and hang out with us.

[00:18:45] I'm sure we'll just end up And on, you know, a hot tub and go to bed at midnight. So, I know it sounds lame, but I, I love it. I love it.

[00:18:54] Sonia: I will say, um, I do remember I was still drinking and like just [00:19:00] raging all night on New Year's Eve. And, and you guys were like, we're going to bed before midnight. And I remember just thinking like, is that the alternative for me? If I am not drinking, do I have to go do yoga at midnight? I know it, it, it can sound to people from the outside to be.

[00:19:18] boring or, and we talk about this a lot in my meetings, thatpeople think like, I used to be cool until I stopped drinking. But can you explain a little bit more how you see New Year's Eve now?

[00:19:32] Kathleen: Yeah. I mean, I too, when I was using drugs and drinking, I would have thought this sounded like the most boring New Year's Eve ever. But now I am, I'm pretty excited about it. Not like, I don't make a big deal of it. But it's definitely I look forward to it in the sense of like a new beginning a new year And I think the thing is that when you get sober and your priorities change and what you [00:20:00] think is fun changes So I I just think there are so many cool ways like I love going for a hike if I can on New Year's Day So I cannot do that if I am hungover.

[00:20:11] So I think there's just so many So many ways that you can See new year's new year's eve after you become sober. How do you see it now?

[00:20:22] Sonia: I love New Year's Eve. I love that idea of reset and renewal and I may not have the most. Exciting New Year's resolutions. Like some of them can be really broad and then some of them are like just, you know, wear more sunscreen. and I'm usually up at midnight, but it's a definitely a more. Serene thoughtful place.

[00:20:45] And so I remember last year we all know had a rough New Year's Eve, but I was journaling at like 1205 into the new year. And yeah, having gratitude for that tough year. And what it taught me, And, I [00:21:00] woke up the next morning ready to, to start the new year and not nursing this epic hangover, which is the part I think that as the years go on, I forget how bad that was to still want that idea of reset and like, it's a new year, new priorities.

[00:21:16] And then you wake up with this hangover, just feeling So shitty about yourself and your body feels terrible and all those resolutions of like, I'm going to do yoga five times a week, or I'm gonna eat like raw vegetables on Mondays, go out the window because I, all I wanted to do was like have a mimosa and a greasy.

[00:21:38] breakfast and then lay on the couch. And so I think that that, I have to remind myself sometimes when I'm having, you know, a rough day, or when I'm thinking about New Year's Eve being like, this is gonna be so boring. It's like, it's not boring. It's amazing.

[00:21:54] Kathleen: It's amazing I don't find it boring at all I know it probably sounds boring, but it's [00:22:00] honestly like I love my new year's eves now. I love it I I love waking up and feeling refreshed and Having the day to do whatever I want So great. What are the type of things that you do on new year's eve now?

[00:22:15] Sonia: All to you know, I'm open to so many things. So sometimes I'll go to like a great low key dinner and sometimes I've been there at midnight. and sometimes I'll go home before midnight and watch the ball drop. And I think also being on vacation. most people have some time off during the holidays can be a great way just to get into a different environment.

[00:22:36] If you have that available to you, I think where you don't feel as tempted to drink, it doesn't have the Um, and yeah, along the lines of your yoga story, there's a bunch of retreats you can go to with that theme of renewal. And I've also spent New Year's Eve alone reflecting on the year past and [00:23:00] setting goals.

[00:23:00] So I think that there are so many possibilities and if you feel strong enough to go to a bar and order a mocktail, you can do that. Really, you can do anything when you're sober that you're comfortable, that you feel comfortable and strong enough doing. There's nothing that's, not available, I would say, to you.

[00:23:21] Kathleen: I totally want to go on a New Year's Eve retreat with you. We have to make that happen. How has that not happened

[00:23:26] Oh my gosh, I totally want to do that.

[00:23:29] I totally want to do that.

[00:23:31] Sonia: think like a New Year's like Eve into day retreat or a New Year's day? Okay,

[00:23:37] Kathleen: Well, I, I mean, I think New Year's Eve to New Year's Day retreat would be amazing, but listen, I'm, I'm also open to New Year's Day. This is pretty awesome.

[00:23:50] Sonia: I feel like you would pick a silent retreat, which

[00:23:53] Kathleen: Oh My god, I was just about to

[00:23:54] say this. Yes. I was just I know you won't that's why I didn't say it but I was [00:24:00] like what would be beautiful is if we could just do a The passion of retreat that is silent and I would love that. I would love that my dream and it's not Possible right now because I have a nine year old and I am fully responsible for her My dream is to do like a five day Or a 10 day silent retreat over New Year's Eve.

[00:24:24] Like, so start before and then go after.

[00:24:28] Sonia: that sounds that sounds like like hell for

[00:24:30] me.

[00:24:30] Kathleen: That's, I

[00:24:31] know, oh yeah.

[00:24:32] Sonia: Yeah, I'm sort of in a like a talking phase like leaning on people like chatting about my problems phase I'm not really in a like deep contemplation phase, but I can see You can see the the positives of

[00:24:46] it.

[00:24:46] Kathleen: So I'm going to plant a seed,

[00:24:48] Sonia. And for our listeners who does not know I'm about to say this, I think, don't say no yet, I think one day we should host a New Year's Eve retreat. [00:25:00] Together and we can pick a super fun location and some of our listeners can attend.

[00:25:07] Sonia: Okay. Okay. Yeah, I'm open. I'm open to it. Maybe there can be a silent portion. Like, there can be a silent group.

[00:25:14] Kathleen: I thinkyou know, we could do like a 5 a. m. meditation on New Year's Day and see how that goes, but not, not mandatory, not mandatory, those who want to show up, but I think, I think we should be hosting a New Year's Eve retreat. It's not happening this year, guys, but maybe in the future it will.

[00:25:30] Sonia: Speaking of, what are some alternative plans that you recommend for people that are trying to stay sober?

[00:25:37] Kathleen: I mentioned earlier, I think that some communities do have sober New Year's Eves, and I, so I think that's an option. I also recommend, if you can host something, that I think you have like a little bit more over control. You can control that a little bit more. You can plan a little bit better.

[00:25:55] I am a huge proponent of daytime. Um, [00:26:00] so I, I think the first year after, Your brother and I divorced. I had a friend of mine. She's also a single mom And I had her over and we made like this beautiful delicious healthy meal We both obviously have kids and so we made like new year's early for them because they were little at the time So we made new year's like midnight for the kids was at 8 p.

[00:26:23] m. and we celebrated and then we went home and it was great. So I hosted, she is not sober, but she does not really drink hardly ever. So she was totally fine with not having alcohol. And we had such a great time that New Year's Eve. Like I had one friend over,

[00:26:42] There are just so many different ways. I know I often journal but hikes are a big thing I love going for long new year's day hikes. You can do that on new year's eve or new year's day as well So I think there's a lot of different things that you can do

[00:26:58] Sonia: I will say, so I will [00:27:00] be in Toronto, I think, for New Year's, and I, I have been thinking about getting some snowshoes and going snowshoeing,on New Year's Day, but I was talking to somebody in Medicine Hat and they said, snowshoeing isn't as easy as you think. You're not just gliding on the snow.

[00:27:17] Kathleen: Oh no, girl, you still have to, I, I have, we have family snowshoes here. If you want to use my daughter's, you can use hers because they would fit you. But I, yes, it's so much fun. Honestly, I think this is a great, I love this, I love this idea. And listen, again, boyfriend has a great hot tub.

[00:27:36] Beautiful, there can be some snowshoeing that happens.

[00:27:41] Sonia: I think that just, that's just the point, right? Is that for me, and I don't, I know sometimes when you're first getting sober, you don't see it that way. For me, it's like, there's so much freedom, right? To being sober. everything opens up to you for New Year's Eve, New Year's Day. Like you can do.

[00:27:58] anything, right? [00:28:00] I, can go to like a community ball dropping type event. You can, you can go skating. You can do anything. And so yeah, I feel like this discussion has really opened some things up for me.

[00:28:14] Kathleen: Oh, I'm really glad. What is the one particular thing that resonated with you the most or just the whole thing?

[00:28:20] Sonia: I think that for me the The risky behavior part and the gratitude I feel, to be moved on from that part of my life where I'm in control now of my body and my mind and like not the alcohol. I think that, that resonates with me, that you had done the same thing and that I think it's just, you know, part of having an issue with drugs and alcohol is that you aren't thinking clearly and I think that's really important for people to hear.

[00:28:50] about you?

[00:28:51] Kathleen: Yeah, I think similar I I mean preparing for this episode I You know, and preparing to think about the risky [00:29:00] behavior, I, I could only let my mind go into the past for a little while to think about all of the things I had done because it was just all of the things that I can't even believe I'm alive, honestly, I can't even believe I'm alive and just crazy things and I, you know, I'm not even going to retell them, but I just can't even, I traveled a lot.

[00:29:22] And so, yeah. Not even in the safety of my own city, like I would be in Asia or like, you know, far, far away places doing really like just not just risky behavior. And, so I think to me as well, I think I am so grateful. I've had this like. feeling this warm feeling of gratitude in my heart since starting to prepare for this episode with just like, I can't believe I'm alive.

[00:29:47] I'm so grateful. So I think that's the main thing. And then my other key takeaway is, wanting to plant the seed of hosting a New Year's retreat with you one day. So, yeah, so I think [00:30:00] those are my,

[00:30:01] Sonia: Yeah, and I think too, it's not just like, I think, you know, we had some pretty elaborate risky behavior, but there's also just the simple risky behavior of like, you know, it's nine o'clock on New Year's Eve and you have people over and you've been drinking and you run to go get another bottle of wine in your car to the liquor store and That is risky, right?

[00:30:23] It doesn't have to be as elaborate as, you know, walking down, a street without many clothes on in the cold. It can just be so simple. It's a split second decision, right?

[00:30:35] Kathleen: Yeah, and your example is a good, I mean, I find that so risky because, you know, with my example, I was the one who, I'm not going to hurt anyone necessarily walking around the city at 4am, but if I were to get in a car and drive to the corner store even, that's not just risking myself, that's risking everyone else around me.

[00:30:57] So I think. Yeah. [00:31:00] Yeah. I agree. I think there's various levels of risky behavior and, and it doesn't have to be that way.

[00:31:06] Sonia: Yeah, and I think we're both open. we don't promote, abstinence just because we're abstinent, and I think that there is that idea of harm reduction, and one way, To reduce harm is to not get in your car and drive when you've been drinking and if that's what comes out of today's episode for somebody, great.

[00:31:26] Kathleen: Yep. That's a big one. I know that's something that you and I both feel really passionately about. Well, everyone, that is a wrap for today's episode. Thank you so much for listening to Sisters in Sobriety and we'll see you next week. A new year.

[00:31:43] Sonia: Woohoo!

[00:31:44] ​